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14 maj, 2009 at 19:13 #61903Anonym anvandareMember14 maj, 2009 at 19:13 #396203Anonym anvandareMember
Det är inte sällan man får läsa o höra om BF tjejer som har 3 timmar cardio per dag, tränar på gymmet, dock utan carbs, o kalori intag är nånting mindre än 1200. Låter inte så OK, eller? De kanske har en OK form första gången när de tävlar, o bestämmer att nästa gång ännu hårdare, o försöker adda cardio, satsa mer, äta mindre, ha en bra form året runt. Men i alla fall, vikten bara går upp… Sen näst contest prep startar, ingenting händer, vad man kan göra än bara adda cardio, äta mindre…
Har ni hört om metabolic burn out? Samma anledning varför tex Mary Lado gjorde slut i sin tävlings karriär. Dags att tänka på om man kunde göra nånting olikt? Är det verkligen så att cardio o mindre calories är alltid det bästa alternativ? Är det verkligen värd att försöka hålla super form under off season? Särskilt om man tänker lite mer framåt… ? Vad efter contest prep?
Hittade ett par mkt intressant artiklar gällande ämnet… första är från Bodysport så copy paste här bara …
Quote:PART 1
Metabolic Burnout – BY KEVINMetabolic Burnout is a term I started using to describe what I’ve seen happen to an increasing number of competitors over the last couple of years. Basically it refers to them getting to a state where their body just doesn’t want to respond anymore to the type of contest prep that had seemed to be working for them in the past. It’s pretty much a self-induced condition that I believe can be avoided and reversed if people understand what’s going on and modify their approach.
In all the years I’ve been involved the fitness industry I’ve known quite a few competitors and seen pretty much every type of contest prep imaginable. Unfortunately I’ve seen a surprising number of people get left by the wayside in the sense that the body or physique they wind up with doesn’t reflect the time and effort they put in. In many cases by looking at them now you would never guess that they ever competed or were once in top shape. Obviously there can be a number of reasons for this related to their individual lives but what I’m concerned with are the ones who may have caused their bodies to wind up this way by the extremeness of their behavior.
I am sure that most of us are familiar with the term ”rebound” as it applies to someone who goes on a really strict diet to lose weight rapidly. After that diet period is over the person often re-gains all of the lost weight and then some when they go back to their previous eating habits (or even improved eating habits). The initial diet was so restrictive that it caused their metabolism to slow down significantly and they were basically doomed to failure from the onset. This type of situation can also be true for competitors who take too radical of an approach in terms of caloric restriction and over training (specifically excessive cardio). After a few cycles of losing and gaining it gets increasingly difficult for the body to respond and can even get to the point where it just doesn’t want to change. This is what I call Metabolic Burnout and I am seeing it more often.
I think that we sometimes forget that our bodies really don’t want to look like the ones we see in the magazines. Since it prioritizes survival above all things having minimal bodyfat stores while building muscle to a greater than normal degree is just the opposite of what it wants to do. Our body sees fat as stored energy and therefore is always trying to stock the fridge so to speak whenever it can. And since muscle cost energy it’s like leaving all the lights in the house on as far as our body is concerned so that’s also something is wants to regulate. Through our training and the way we eat we are trying to send our body the message that we need this extra muscle and that we want to use and not store extra energy. But we have to learn how and always remember to work with our body, coaxing it in the direction we want it to go. Too often we do things to try to force it and ultimately it fights back harder and show’s us that it is really in charge.
There are a number of competitors I know or know of who are spending the greater part of the year holding what for them is an excessive amount of body weight and are having an increasingly difficult time getting lean again. I know of several who took the entire last year off simply because they could not get in shape again no matter how hard they tried. The other factor in this is that they felt so burnt out on training and dieting that they simply did not feel motivated to try very hard, they had lost a lot of the passion and enthusiasm that was once theirs. For someone to get to this point it is usually preceded by a very similar cycle of behavior. A typical situation is as follows in part two.
14 maj, 2009 at 19:16 #396204Anonym anvandareMemberContinues..
Quote:Metabolic burnourt-PART 2: Susya competitor named susy decides she is going to do a show. She has 14 weeks to get ready and she feels confident she can do pretty well if she is in great shape. She’s done a couple of shows before and although she has placed ok she didn’t feel like she peeked quite right and showed her best look. She’s been training very hard over the past six months and feels she is ready to make a statement with her physique and have a breakout year. This first show will set the table for even bigger shows later in the season. If all goes as planned she will be battling for a pro card before years end.
She starts her prep and it’s on from day one. She’s doing 5 days of weight training and six days of cardio, 45 minutes to an hour each session. Twice a week she is doing a morning 45 minute session as well, plus on weekends she does sprints and plyometric training. Other than the one cheat meal she gives herself she has significantly reduced her calories and cleaned up her diet to include only about 10-12 total items. She starts losing weight and everyone is commenting on the changes. She has never been more focused and dedicated in her life and really feels that she is living her dream of being a physique competitor.
After about six weeks the weight loss is starting to slow down. This is a little concerning because susy feels she still isn’t losing the bodyfat as fast she would like. Time to step up her game she decides. Now each cardio session is at least an hour, usually the toughest cardio she can do-the good ole rotating stair climber. She also adds another morning session which brings her up to 5 double sessions a week. She’s still doing sprints and plyo’s but doesn’t really count that as cardio, especially since she is noticing that her speed and power both seem to be waning a bit. But hey, gotta do it because she doesn’t feel her lower body is getting tight the way she needs it to and that was her biggest problem at her last show.
Susy drops more weight over the next couple of weeks and is starting to see the finish line. Her energy is low, her appetite is non-existent, she is sick of chicken breast and tilapia and she just told her boyfriend to take a hike until he learns to be more supportive. She’s still worried about her legs as they are not as lean as her upper body which has gotten smaller due to a loss of some muscle but her arms were getting too big anyway so it’s all good. She would love to do more cardio but just doesn’t have the time with work. Those damn fatburners don’t seem to be doing anything so she decides to cut her calories a bit more. She’s been at 1200 for the last few weeks so 1000 it is and an extra cup of coffee will keep her energy high enough to train. She’s up to six days of weight training because she doesn’t want to lose any more muscle yet she keeps getting weaker. Everyone says she looks great but she can’t see it yet and is getting a bit annoyed. She’s hungry, tired, grouchy, gassy, and if she catches that bald headed dude with the tattoos staring at her butt one more time she not going to be responsible for what comes out of her mouth!
Two days before the show and this is the leanest she has ever been. All her hard work has paid off and she really feels proud of how she was able to stick it out. She thought she would have a bit more muscle than this but her friend tells her she will look bigger onstage anyway so not to worry. Her legs still don’t look tight, what’s wrong with them? Are they holding water, they look smaller, are they flat? She asked 6 different trainers and got 5 different answers. She had her suit adjusted and it looks beautiful. She has a hair and nail appointment later that day and will start tanning that night. She’s really been working on her posing a feels a lot more comfortable with it than before. She keeps forgetting to smile as she can’t concentrate very well and doesn’t feel in the mood but she knows she will remember onstage. All of her friends and family will be there including her boyfriend who has been so supportive. She can’t wait to get the show over and go out for pizza and chocolate ice cream.
It’s 3 days after the show and susy is back in the gym. She had planned to take a week off but really didn’t know what to do with herself. She can’t believe how much she has eaten over the past few days and though she actually looked better yesterday she feels fat now and that it’s starting to show. The judges gave her second place but everyone she knows told her she should have won. The girl who beat her didn’t have as much muscle as her and wasn’t as lean as her. What were these judges looking for anyway? There was another show in 4 weeks and though she hadn’t really planned on doing it that girl was going to be there and she knew she could take her. Can‘t let there be any doubt if they meet up at the nationals later in the year. Susy is really focused now and ready to pull out all stops. Those few days off really made a difference. She was back down to 1000 calories a day and thinking about going to 900 just to get ride of that last little bit. She cut back on the weights to just five days a week and this would give her the time to put in a 3rd cardio session on that day. Now it was really on!
3 months later and susy is 8 weeks from her doing her first national show. She had kicked that girls butt at the second show and 3 weeks later won another show for good measure. She gave herself a week off to rest and celebrate and then it was back to the gym. At first she had a hard time getting into the swing of things. She had cut her cardio back to only once a day, had reduced her weight training and brought her calories up to about 1500-1600. She was having a few too many cheat meal for a while but cut that out once it started to show on the scale.
For the last 4 weeks she had been back on her previous program only nothing seemed to be happening. She was still gaining weight even after she cut back on the junk food which she always seemed to be craving. Why couldn’t she seem to get it going? The thought of dieting again made her feel sick but she knew she had no choice if she wanted to be ready on time. She’s back to doing 2 hours of cardio a day on 1000 calories and her body just doesn’t seem to care. Now what? This is what makes a champion she decided and resolved to now do 75 minute in the morning and 75 in the evening for 5 days a week. On day six and seven she would give herself a break with only an hour doing weights also on that sixth day but taking the rest of day seven off.4 weeks later and susy is lost. Her body is tired, her muscles are flat and soft, she hasn’t lost any weight in 3 weeks and stopped having her period a month ago. She’s frustrated that she keeps getting sick and is starting not to care as she feels that she is looking worse now than earlier in the year. People are telling her that she needs a break and is pushing to hard but how can she possibly take a break and still be ready on time when she can’t even make progress working like this. She knows that if she can be her best she could win this show. But her body seems like it has stopped working the right way and she doesn’t know what to do.
It’s 5 months later, 4 months after susy didn’t place at the nationals. She took a couple weeks off from the gym, went back for a week then took two more off. She just can’t seem to get going the way she wants and has no motivation. Her diet is horrible as she can’t bring herself to eat clean for more than a day or two at a time. Her weight is 25 pounds over her contest weight, 10 pounds more than when she started before her first show of the year and it still seems to be rising. She hates lifting because she feels like it’s just making her bigger and she hates doing cardio because it just bores her now. In fact, she hates going to the gym because she feels self conscious that people are looking and her and comparing her to how she used to be. She doesn’t know how she got this way as she really didn’t eat that much! She’s been back and forth to the doctor getting her thyroid checked out. She wants to compete again and still feels she has what it takes but can’t imagine going through that kind schedule again and keeping her sanity. Susy is a bit unsure what to do with herself now. Does she have to go on a contest diet just to get back to her normal weight? Will she have to do an hour of cardio a day in the off season just so her clothes fit? She hears other girls talking about doing shows and sounding so excited. She remembers when she used to be excited. She remembers when this used to be fun.
14 maj, 2009 at 19:18 #396205Anonym anvandareMemberAnd continues..
Quote:Metabolic Burnout Part #3-Becoming SusyFirst of all I must comment that I know or have known quite a few “Susy’s” and the story has had a number of different endings. I know several Susy’s who have given up all hope of ever competing again and have settled into a lifestyle away from fitness. The damage they did to their metabolisms is only part of the equation. Mentally and emotionally they can’t seem to get their heads back in the game of living a fitness lifestyle (let alone getting back on stage) because to them the approach is so “all or nothing” that they don’t see or believe it can be done any other way and therefore have (at least to this point) given up and stopped trying. Training to them means 2-3 hours a day 5-6 days a week and they simply can’t bring themselves to travel that road again. They are all a good 40-plus pounds from where they would probably like to be weight wise (and I’m being diplomatic).
I have even known a few male “Susy’s”. Two who did bodybuilding competitions, and one who did the old EAS Body for Life Challenge. They all looked great at their show or on the target date only to gain back considerably more than they had lost. It was a general lack of knowledge and the same extreme approach that let them down in the end.
The most common version of Susy I know are the ones who reach contest shape through incredible work ethic and dedication which has them looking great for 2-4 weeks and then the rest of the year they are 20-30 pounds over their contest weight. Every time they try to compete it gets harder to bring their weight down and takes longer than before. Some of them have re-devoted themselves to doing things a different and better way and are in the process of getting themselves back to where they want to be. There is a learning curve involved as old habits die hard but they are moving in the right direction and slowly changing their approach.
Finally there are the “Susy’s” who have completely figured it out and no longer have issues with rebounding and severe weight swings. They are working with their bodies and achieving their goals of being the best they can possible be. They are fit and healthy and look good all year round. Getting ready for a photo shoot or competition only involves reasonable changes that they have no problem making and they always remain in control of their appearance. This is what we want for our “Susy”. In order to “fix” Susy we must first understand how and why she wound up with problems.
One of the biggest mistakes a competitor can make is trying to progress too fast. For some reason we tend to think that everything must happen right now, all-at-once, as soon as we decide we want it. What we forget is that our body simply does not work this way and never will. Our body is geared towards survival and in times of severe caloric restriction and/or energy expenditure it will fight to maintain its fat stores and eliminate excess energy loss. By trying to progress faster that what your body considers to be an acceptable rate of change you will in many cases trigger it to become even more resistive to change and further slow the pace of fat loss. Your body has no idea you are purposely trying to create this radical fat loss so it goes into survival mode and starts fighting to hold on to the fat it considers so essential.
The cardio that was intended to be fat burning is now muscle wasting and causing the resting metabolism to slow.The first sign of a slowing metabolism isn’t necessarily fatal to all progress and can be worked around with the right approach. What happens in the case of a Susy is that the contest prep intensity is so far beyond the body’s ability to properly adapt that it triggers it to resist. Think about it, at a time when the metabolism is slowing due to a prolonged period of too few calories and too much exercise (cardio), we choose to take in even less calories and do even more exercise. This costs us more muscle and pushes us even deeper into survival mode, further slowing progress. So of course our response is to crank it up even more, which makes everything worse, which makes us crank it up even more, etc, etc. Ultimately through this process short terms goals can be reached but at the end of the cycle you are left with a sluggish metabolism and a body that will absolutely store anything and everything it possibly can and burn as few calories as it can get away with. The longer the body was subjected to these extremes the longer it can take to normalize.
So how do we avoid becoming like Susy or fix these problems if we already have them? There are several stages of progression that I have seen be effective and would recommend implementing.
14 maj, 2009 at 19:19 #396206Anonym anvandareMember…
Quote:Metabolic Burnout Part #4: Fixing SusyThe first step in fixing Susy is complete physical rest. Her body has been pushed so hard for so long that it is exhausted and can’t respond properly. A full week off is the absolute minimum she should have but I would strongly recommend taking two. Eating during this time period should be clean but not restrictive. The goal is to get the body healthy again by resting it and providing it with the proper nourishment. Continuing to restrict calories because she is worried about gaining weight will only serve to keep her in survival mode. You are trying to send a message to your body that it is OK and does not need to be concerned with survival. Creating that environment involves eliminating the stress associated with training and providing the body with enough quality calories so that it no longer feels the need to overcompensate by trying to store everything it is given and keep everything it has. This total rest period could indeed be longer but it is important that the eating during this period remains relatively clean. If there is still a feeling of exhaustion after two weeks as well as a lack of enthusiasm about getting back to the gym it would be a good idea to have a full medical check-up before starting up again.
The next step is to enter Training Phase One. The goal here is to start to turn the metabolism back on with a minimal amount of low intensity training. Susy should do no more than 2-3 weight workouts a week of approximately 30 minutes with no more than three 15-minute sessions of low-intensity cardio (walking on the treadmill with little or no elevation). The resistance workouts should be total body training with one exercise a bodypart done for 3-4 sets of 10-15 moderate reps. This is not training to failure, high-intensity, or Heavy Duty style training. It is not about bringing up week points and balancing the physique. The goal is to start to wake-up the metabolism and continue to get healthy. The training should be very non-taxing and enjoyable. We have to get Susy to like the feeling of working out again and not have it be a negative experience. Eating should remain non calorie restrictive, clean and healthy. Lean protein sources, fresh fruits and vegetables, whole grain breads and cereals, health fats and oils, and adequate amounts of fluids should be the standard. This period can last for weeks or months depending on what Susy’s body tells her. She should start to gain back some muscle that was lost during contest dieting and her metabolism should start to improve. A good indicator of this is her appetite and energy levels should start to increase a bit. Susy will hopefully start feeling a little more positive but she is not quite out of the woods yet.
The next phase, Training Phase Two may be the most critical phase of all in that it can either accelerate Susy’s progress and return to normality or push her back into a place where progress and recovery are non-existent. The cardio amount should not increase. This is tough for people to understand but very important. The goal is to get your body to respond and progress on less and less cardio. By continuing to do more this goal will never be reached. The pace of the treadmill walking can increase slightly (still walking) and the elevation can go up into the 4-6 range but always remember that we are trying to get the body to re-learn and ultimately respond to the minimum amount of work. Coax your body, don’t force it.
As Susy’s energy starts to return and she doesn’t see the scale moving the way she would like (or at all) there will be a great temptation to crank everything up and make it happen. This is when she must discipline herself to stay patient. She must think of it as if she is running a long distance race, say a half-marathon. She started off at an all-out sprint only to wind up exhausted and doubled over a few hundred feet into the race. Slowly she catches her breath and starts to feel like she will live. She starts walking and feels her energy return. She realizes that her body is now capable of more so she is ready to start running again and get back in the race. Should she start sprinting again? Of course not. She has to run at a pace that she can physically maintain for the duration of the race. Too often fitness enthusiasts go as hard and as fast as they can drive themselves until their bodies simply can’t keep up with them. We have to learn to pace our training so that we can go the distance and be strong at the end. No matter what she looked like before or how hard Susy was able to push herself her body will still only respond so fast and at this point that may be even slower than it was initially capable of responding. Once Susy gains back some of the muscle she lost from her contest diet and once her body re-learns how to process an adequate amount of calories again she will be on the right path. How long will this take? As long as Susy’s body says it should take! She should wait until her bodyweight starts to plateau. Once Susy’s body is no longer re-gaining muscle and no longer increasing its fat stores (which is why she needs to be eating clean foods as opposed to anything and everything) it will be a good sign that she is capable of increasing her energy output without triggering a relapse. Susy is ready to enter Phase Three training.
Phase Three training is a completely interactive phase of training in which Susy should make minimum gradual changes in response to her body’s needs. She should change no more than one variable at a time and allow her body one-two weeks to give her feedback from how that particular change did or did not affect her and the pursuit of her goals. For example Susy may increase the length of her 3 cardio session by 5 minutes each. After two weeks she may increase the intensity of her weight training. Two weeks later she may add a 4th day of cardio. Following this she may add another day of weight training. What Susy must be careful to remember is that the goal of these changes it to get the body to respond and then to keep it responding. If she starts making progress after one change and her body get leaner and she loses a couple of pounds, she doesn’t automatically make another change. Susy should stay with those minimal adjustments for as long as she is progressing. Once the progress stops, then she can make another change. The goal is not to get up to a set number of cardio sessions or a set number of weight workouts. It is not to reach max intensity as quickly as possible. The goal is to get the body to respond and adapt properly to the needed amount of training as opposed to the maximum amount of training. If Susy could get straight A’s by studying an hour a day, 4 days a week why would she ever want to start studying 4 hours a day, 6 days a week? In our case we are trying to teach Susy who’s been studying 3-4 hours a night how to get the same or better grades and only study 1-2 hours. It all comes down to Susy listening to her body and allowing it to progress at its own rate.
As Susy progresses through Phase Three training she will find herself rediscovering her fitness journey. Ideally she will reach a point where she is back to her old self physically and looking towards the future. What Susy needs to always remember is that there is a limit as to how much of any type of training is beneficial. There is a limit to how often you can train each bodypart, how many total sets you can do, how long your cardio sessions can be, how many cardio sessions you can have, how many calories under your caloric equilibrium you can stay, how hard you can push yourself without enough rest, and how much overall demand you can make on your body before it starts to cause everything you do to become less and less effective. Pushed to hard for too long and the body will again say “That’s it, I’m not going to work right for you anymore!” Phase Three is where limits are discovered and when reached they are respected and body is allowed to recharge. Phase Three is where Susy should be most of the time and when it is mastered Phase Four can be accomplished.
Phase Four training is for achieving a physical peak. This is where contest prep training happens. There should be a designated time limit attached to Phase Four training. As Susy enters Phase Four she should know that she will not be in contest prep mode indefinitely and that once she has achieved a peak it will not be maintained forever (or else it wouldn’t be a peak). Phase Four training is the sprint to the finish line. The trick is you have to be close enough to the finish line in order to reach it with that final sprint. It’s not about jumping to a completely off-the-scale level of intensity that exceeds the limits that were hopefully discovered in Phase Three. It’s about working close to but within those limits of training and nutrition for a set period of time in order to achieve the maximum results and effect. Once Susy has reached her peak she should taper her training and nutrition and asses her body’s needs before moving forward to her next goal.
14 maj, 2009 at 19:21 #396207Anonym anvandareMember…
Quote:Metabolic Burnout Part 5: The Conclusion…. “If you knew Susy…”
A friend of mine told me about a “Susy” who is getting ready for a show. Her former trainer won’t work with her anymore and she is having problems staying on her diet for more than a day or two at a time. She is up to doing 3 hours of cardio a day now trying to get her body to respond…A client of mine has a “Susy” friend who used to compete in fitness about 5 years ago. She sustained a lot of minor injuries pushing herself so hard back then as all of her training and dieting were extreme. She got a couple of seconds and thirds in competition and when she asked the head judge why she didn’t do better he told her she was fat. Of course this just made her turn it the heat even more until her body said enough one day. She is about 50 pounds heavier now than she was then and avoids the gym altogether because she is disillusioned and burned out on fitness. Plus she is embarrassed to have any of her old friends see her…
There is a national level Susy I know who is as dedicated as anyone. When she gets ready for a show nothing else matters and she forces her body to get in shape no matter how much cardio or how few calories it requires. After the show she slips back into her 25-30 pound heavier body and remains there for the next year to year-and-a-half until she can psych herself up to do it all over again…..
The set of circumstances that creates a “Susy” has been repeated countless times. Ironically those circumstances are born from a number of positive things like dedication, drive, disciple, sacrifice, determination, and ambition. These are all traits that help create success in numerous fields and having some degree of most of them is an absolute necessity if someone is to become the best they can possibly be. But there must also remain an understanding of what is possible and what is not. There must be an understanding of just how the body works and what it is and isn’t capable of. There must be patience, planning, priorities, and balance to temper the enthusiasm so that the big picture and the ultimate goals does not get lost along the way and left un-reached.
The fact of the matter is that our bodies can only change so fast. We can only build muscle so fast, only lose fat so fast, only have so much energy, can only train effectively for so long, can only recover so fast and can only push ourselves so hard. Our body is amazing in that it adapts to new demands made on it and constantly gets better at meeting those demands. But if we try to push it too far beyond its capabilities for too long it loses its ability to adapt and starts resisting the very changes we endeavor to make because it knows that too much change too soon throws off a delicate system of balances and can be harmful.
Susy’s initial problem stemmed from trying to lose bodyfat too fast and that process resulted in a cycle of behavior that created even greater problems for her. You can avoid ever becoming a Susy (or going back to being her again) simply by giving yourself the proper amount of time necessary to prepare for a show or event. Not only does this involve picking the show date with care but also practicing a fitness lifestyle to such a degree that you remain close enough to your target weight that you are always in control. If for some reason obstacles do arise and the timing doesn’t seem to be working out as you had hoped try not to forget the big picture and don’t sacrifice your long term future for a shot a short term success. Being a little off at one show with a metabolism that still works properly sets you up nicely for a number of subsequent shows. Compromising your body’s ability to respond by forcing it to peak via extreme practices may get you a bigger trophy one day, only to leave you unable to match that feat for some time to come. Better to skip the show altogether and get yourself back on track than to start down a road that leads to even greater future problems. Success in the fitness industry is more likely to come for you if you are known for always being in good shape than as someone who looked good once or twice but can’t seem to get it back together.
As the fitness industry continues to move forward more and more women will be looking for information and motivation about how to improve themselves and become fit, healthy, and attractive. They will be looking at the women onstage as role models and people to emulate. A number of opportunities could present themselves for the women who attained their physical goals in a way that is safe, healthy and can be incorporated by others. Continue to learn everything you can about how your body works and how it responds to training and proper nutrition practices. Remain as patient as you are dedicated in the pursuit of your goals as both are equally important. And understand that there is more at stake than having a great physique or simply winning a title, trophy, or pro card. Achieve your physical goals in a way that still leaves you healthy, positive, energetic, and enthusiastic about what you do and you will find that what you get out of it will be well worth the effort and hard work you put in.
14 maj, 2009 at 19:27 #396208Anonym anvandareMemberEn intressant article angående extreme diets (tex 4 hours cardio,minimal cals)…
Metabolic Damage Among Figure and Bodybuilding Competitors
[http://www.bodybuildingweekly.com/vip_writers/scott_abel_php/scott_abel_metabolic_damage_among_figure_and_bodybuilding_compet.html]
14 maj, 2009 at 20:04 #396209Anonym anvandareMemberintressant artikel , mkt läsvärd
17 maj, 2009 at 14:49 #396210Anonym anvandareMemberMåste bara få tacka för den här texten Anne, mycket läsvard för mig och många fler ..utskrift pågår :nod
21 augusti, 2009 at 18:16 #396211Anonym anvandareMemberfick en tankeställare nu. Men det är svår….
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